The Mo’Kelly Report

Cop Punches Woman in Face During JAYWALKING Stop!
06.15.2010, 7:25 PM
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And people wonder why African-Americans have such a historical mistrust/distrust of law enforcement.


The Mo’Kelly Report is an entertainment journal with a political slant; published weekly at The Huffington Post and  It is meant to inform, infuse and incite meaningful discourse…as well as entertain. The Mo’Kelly Report is syndicated by Blogburst. For more Mo’Kelly,  Mo’Kelly can be reached at and he welcomes all commentary.

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60 Comments so far
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Of course it’s hard to say what we have here. Based on the video we have two women laying hands on a police officer. How do you suppose that’s going to work out?

It’s amazing how much video I see of people escalating tensions with the police.

That makes zero sense.

Comment by Walt Bennett

Although this looks bad, we don’t know the whole story, and rest assured both ladies will be charged and the police will be vindicated.

Comment by Gua

I just saw this on the news, this happened in Seattle and apparently this was a Jaywalking arrest/bust?? Both ladies were arrested and the Seattle Police department has already made a statement that “Punching” is acceptable police tactics!!! Of course it is being reviewed.

Comment by Gua

Well I want to know more about who he was originally detaining and why, but it was clear that he was by himself and that by the time he punched the woman he was in a 1 on 2 situation. If that had escalated even further and somebody had disarmed him, this could have been an incredible riot with who knows what sort of outcome.

I’ll say again: You lay your hands on an officer of the law and you can expect to receive full force in response.

If you ask me, the slow-motion wrestling match was an act of kindness. He had every justification to take the woman down hard.

What in the WORLD were these young women thinking?

Comment by Walt Bennett

Walt, you miss the point and it’s the same as Rodney King.

The simple and inarguable point is that you arrest the person. You don’t punch them in the face, you don’t hit him with a night stick 56 times. I know enough law enforcement officers to know that punching a woman in the face is neither an effective nor lawful way to arrest someone…especially someone WITHOUT a weapon.

All this talk of supposed escalation and maybe being disarmed is irrelevant. I mean that, irrelevant. His job is to arrest the woman, which by law he was entitled to do the moment she touched him. He could’ve taken her down and arrested her. In fact he should have.

If punching an unarmed woman in the face is in any way a “lawful” arrest procedure, please pray for this society.

Comment by mrmokelly

They don’t teach law enforcement to get into fistfights, they teach them to take a suspect down and arrest him/her…two different things. And since it’s obvious the woman was not in the midst of punching the officer, it’s even more egregious. There’s enough video to see he was not in the midst of dodging punches. Stop inventing was is not there and acknowledge what is. It’s an unlawful act by the officer.

Comment by mrmokelly

This clearly was not LAPD. Can you imagine the video footage if this took place on Crenshaw and Slauson? Hell, go further down the street to Crenshaw and Manchester, and you get Inglewood PD. This same scenario would have gotten girlfriend at least 22 warning shots in her chest!

Comment by Krystal


The only thing egregious in this incident that we know of so far is the refusal of people to obey a police order.

What I know so far: He witnessed a young man crossing the street when he was not in a crosswalk. As he approached the man to discuss this, four females did the same thing. He instructed everybody to come over to his car, where my presumption is he would have either verbally warned them of the law or cited them for a minor offense and sent them on their way.

One of the women began to walk away. He began to escort her to the car. She began to resist. Cue cell phone cam.

We see all that happened from there. Resistance, escalation and an officer who is outnumbered.

You tell me how that’s going to go, 100 percent of the time.

And bringing Rodney King into this is fallacious and reckless.

Comment by Walt Bennett


To directly address the punch:

Admittedly that was an instinctive reaction. On the other hand, this woman was interfering with a police action. She was committing a felony. And she was potentially igniting a dangerous escalation.

If black folk keep thinking they can egg a white officer into a reaction and then scream “RACISM! BRUTALITY!”, then they are not owning their part of the problem.

When respect for order and authority break down, serious tragedies can result.

No serious tragedy resulted here. That was a very fortunate outcome.

Comment by Walt Bennett

It’s going too far to represent these actions as “thuggish”, but it is worth recognizing that a police incident is de facto tense to start with, then factor in that a crowd is gathering and the subjects are resisting and obstructing.

It simply made no sense for these young ladies to escalate.

The take-away lesson from this must be: OBEY THE POLICE. You cannot win a confrontation with the police without committing felonies and risking your own safety and that of others. If ever a situation was a definition of “No-Win”, resisting the police falls into that category.

Does escalation sometimes go further than justified? Of course. Does that in itself justify future acts of resistance? Of course not. You are responsible for your own actions.

And yes, the girl who was punched is now charged with a felony. Smart move on her part, eh?

And I want to re-emphasize that the actions of those young women ran a serious risk of taking a minor incident and turning it into something tragic.

We must learn lessons at times like this, so the lessons don’t get more expensive in every conceivable way.

I mean this: At least nobody is making burial plans today.

Comment by Walt Bennett

BrutalGal…I made it clear…you’re banned. You did not back up your statements on racial hate crimes. You don’t get to troll here.

Comment by mrmokelly


You’re again arguing a point not in contention. I’m saying touch an officer…you should be arrested. I’m ALSO saying, punching a woman in the face is not an allowable or legal arrest technique. THAT is the comparison to Rodney King. Rodney King SHOULD have been arrested. 56 baton strikes is not an allowable or legal arrest technique of an unarmed man…nor does arresting him necessitate it.

Comment by mrmokelly

And Walt,

I’m not screaming racism…I’m screaming HISTORY. Please show me the HISTORY of such incidents (remember Oscar Grant, Sean Bell et. al) and it including non-African-Americans.

Please show me the documented history.

Don’t “justify” the punch Walt. I don’t care if it was instinctive or not…it’s illegal…as is touching an officer.

Comment by mrmokelly


At times like this I do give the benefit of the doubt to the police.

I agree, the punch was not the best possible reaction. The question is, was it justified?

On very narrow grounds I say it was.

And don’t for a moment think I’m not disturbed by the punch, because I am. This is a definite training issue and I expect them to approach it as such.

But I am much more concerned with an attitude that says “We can ignore police commands, we can resist police actions.”

I don’t want to see somebody die because tensions escalated due to such acts.

We both know that’s a predictable result.

Comment by Walt Bennett

Oh and by the way: If you want to see white folks getting manhandled for resisting and disobeying police officers, just watch any random episode of COPS.

There are PLENTY of stupid white folk out there.

Comment by Walt Bennett

CNN just showed a second angle, more to the side.

Do you know what the second woman did, Morris?

She SHOVED the officer. Just before he set his feet and clocked her, she leaned her arm into him and pushed him backward.


Tell me why he didn’t pull a baton and cave in her skull?

(a) He didn’t have one?

(b) He took MERCY on her.

You SHOVE a police officer and the WORST you get is ONE PUNCH?

This girl came out so luck. And yes she’s charged with a felony, and with an aggressive prior, GOOD LUCK downgrading it.

Comment by Walt Bennett

I live in the Seattle/Tacoma area and its not a great time to be a cop up here. There have been a few racially motivated incidents here in the past year or two that have gotten quite a bit of public scrutiny, as well as retaliation resulting in the death of four officiers in Tacoma and two in Seattle. I don’t condone confronting and resisting police officiers. This incident happened in the south end of Seattle in the rainier valley where a lot of minorities live. The police treat everyone as if they are criminals, they are nasty and quite a few are know to dislike minorities. I was quite surprised that there wasn’t further escalation with all those young men standing around. I guess a camara phone is a good thing to have these day because whenever I see any altercation involving minorities I pull mine out.

Comment by southernVal


Is it your opinion that these girls were local residents with a predisposition to feel hassled by the police in general? If so, was this perhaps another episode of harassment, and were these girls perhaps attempting, at first, to engage in civil disobedience?

And was jaywalking in full view of a police officer an act of open defiance?

What’s your take on the social issues at work?

Comment by Walt Bennett


This is SO, SO simple. I don’t care if she shoved the officer. A man should be able to take down and arrest a woman without punching her in the face. It’s not a police tactic. You keep arguing what the woman did.

We’re not arguing whether her behavior was worthy of arrest, can’t make it any clearer. The ISSUE is punching the woman. His job is to arrest her. He wasn’t in a fight. Pounce on her and arrest her.

And by your own admission, he threw the first punch…which makes it even worse.

Comment by mrmokelly

If you can’t arrest an unarmed woman without punching her in the face you shouldn’t be a police officer.

Comment by mrmokelly

“Oh and by the way: If you want to see white folks getting manhandled for resisting and disobeying police officers, just watch any random episode of COPS.”

Getting manhandled is not the issue here Walt. It’s the ILLEGALITY of PUNCHING a woman in the face. If he would have pounced on her…there is nothing to say, she broke the law and it’s a felony to touch an officer.

Getting punched in the face is not the same as getting manhandled.

And show me the video of the non-African American getting shot in the back in Oakland. Show me the cases of the non-African-Americans winding up dead in the hands of law enforcement under “strange” circumstances.

I’m here all day.

Ron Settles anyone?

Amadou Diallo anyone?

Oscar Grant anyone?

Sean Bell anyone?

I’m not screaming racism, I’m screaming documented HISTORY of these “coincidences.” And if you really are bored and have time…

Comment by mrmokelly


I’ve seen plenty of white folk punched in the face and clubbed in the head on COPS.

I ask again: Why wasn’t she clubbed? You SHOVE a police officer and ALL you get is ONE PUNCH?

Morris, I agree: This really is simple.

Comment by Walt Bennett

Actually, CNN had the same angle you have. Watch closely. The last thing she does before getting punched is to shove the man.

She shoved him.

Please transplant that act to any person in this country against any police officer in this country, and describe what you expect to happen next.

If every possible version does not include some degree of beat-down, you’re not being honest.

This would be on the far, far light end of possible outcomes.

Comment by Walt Bennett


That’s not for me to decide why she wasn’t clubbed. The issue is the same. It’s called excessive force. If she was shot, it was excessive force. If she was clubbed it was excessive force. You’re right, extremely simple. The unarmed woman did not need to be punched in the face to be arrested and you don’t need to be a cop to recognize this fact.

And the moment you can show me ONE woman punched in the face on COPS who did not punch an officer then I’ll believe you. I have video here, show me yours.

Comment by mrmokelly

Walt, you basically making the argument that whenever a citizen steps over the line, all is fair game and you get what you get. Really, no it isn’t and that’s why there are laws against this.

Comment by mrmokelly


Regarding your last two comments, here’s what I have apparently not made clear:

I do not see excessive force. I said it is a narrow determination, based on two factors: (1) a lone police officer was being physically engaged by two angry people; (2) a crowd was beginning to form.

Now, again I say: There were better choices, probably. This is absolutely a training issue. But this officer was being backed into a corner and he is trained to use force to deal with that.

This incident did not escalate further. Some credit goes somewhere for that. He didn’t club her. He didn’t brutally take her down. He didn’t whip out his gun and order everybody to freeze.

This will get cleaned up in due course, but I see nothing excessive in what he did, and he could have gone a lot further than that without being excessive.

And Morris, I swear to you: All over YouTube you will find cops beating on white folk for being rude, trying to take charge, obstructing or resisting.

If you really want me to dig up some examples, fine. I’ll do it tonight.

Comment by Walt Bennett


Would being tased be more or less brutal than this?

What’s your opinion?

Comment by Walt Bennett

Being tased is not more or less brutal, it’s within the prescribed guidelines of arresting an unruly and uncooperative suspect. You can get tased for running out onto a professional field and running from the cops. Taser, pepper spray…etc. It’s within the accepted guidelines.

Brutal is not the issue. And by the way…the punch didn’t DE-escalate the event. It de-escalated in SPITE of the punch, not because. HUGE difference.

Comment by mrmokelly

Yes Walt, I want you to find a few things. I want you to find the litany of incidents of Whites suspiciously dying in police custody…that’s the first thing. I also want you to find incidents of women being punched in the face without either a weapon or throwing a punch at an officer. That’s specifically what I want.

Comment by mrmokelly

Normally, I’m on your side Mo’Kelly… but this time, I gotta say these girls were wrong. They were both pushing and throwing punches on a cop and that was wrong.

Initially, he was dealing with the girl in the black shirt. He wasn’t engaging the girl in the pink shirt. She started the escalation process by pushing him and laying hands on him as she was trying to get between him and the girl in black– obviously trying to defend her friend.

In my humble opinion, that was where she went wrong. When she laid hands on him with the intention to inflict harm, I believe he had a right to defend himself… and as he was already trying to restrain the other girl (without throwing punches), he couldn’t simply just try to hold the pink shirt girl’s hands while he was holding the other one down to.

The bigger problem to me is that he was handling this situation with multiple people on his own. Do they not allow cops to have partners in Seattle? He definitely needed some back up. It took him nearly two minutes to wrestle the girl in the black shirt enough that he could arrest her.

Sad situation. Normally, I wouldn’t feel this way about cop aggression… I hate cops trying to force their way onto people knowing they have the blue code backing them all the way– they almost NEVER get punished. However, in this situation, I’m tired of these renegade people thinking they can curse out cops, shove them around, be above the law and think nothing should happen.

In viewing this video, I do not think its about race at all. If these people were breaking the law, they needed to stop and accept their punishment. Not instigate a fight. SMH…

Comment by pretty girl

@Pretty Girl…

I’m in NO way condoning the behavior of the women. I’m in NO way saying they shouldn’t be arrested. I am ABSOLUTELY saying that punching one in the face is not necessary in arresting an unarmed woman.

If he jumps on her and arrests her…it’s all good. But this isn’t.

Comment by mrmokelly

But how was he going to jump on her, while he was already trying to restrain the other one? If he jumped on her, the other girl would have jumped on him and it would have been even worse.

The problem was he severely needed backup, so he and his partner could have tag teamed…

Comment by pretty girl

@ Walt regarding your questions:
“Is it your opinion that these girls were local residents with a predisposition to feel hassled by the police in general? If so, was this perhaps another episode of harassment, and were these girls perhaps attempting, at first, to engage in civil disobedience?

And was jaywalking in full view of a police officer an act of open defiance?

What’s your take on the social issues at work?”

These girls weren’t even students at the high school that is across the street. The reason so many pple were out there was because school was letting out. These girls have had minor infractions of the law, are in homes for girls with emotional and violent tendencies. Yes they probably did feel they were being hasseled because several ppl were jaywalking at the time,not just them. The school had called the police earlier because they were concerned at how the students were not using the overpass to cross the street but were instead jaywalking…this has been going on for years. What I don’t understand is the punch in the face. Yes she shoved him, but he should of been more professional. Yes it was just another instance of harassment by SPD and there ill trained officiers. Look, I try my best to follow the law and be as cooperative as I can be to law enforcement..but this area of Seattle is going through a great upheaval. Folks have gotten tired of living in the suburbs, so they are moving back into Seattle proper to be close to jobs. They have already run minorities out of the historically minority Central District of Seattle and pushed us out to the suburbs. We are being priced out of the housing and rental markets here. They built a light rail project right in the middle of what we call the Hood, they tore down the projects and built so-called affordable mixed communities, which still price many out, and they’ve flooded the area with police to harass those of us who have decided to stick it out so the suburbians feel safer. So yes the minority community in the area are feeling no love for SPD.

Comment by southernVal

That’s what the police academy is for…training for situations just like those. Punching her doesn’t de-escalate the situation. Punching one doesn’t make the second less of a threat somehow. In the end, the ultimate question was how/why did it rise to this point from jaywalking. And to your point, if he felt he couldn’t “handle” a woman or two…then engaging them without back up is a HIM problem not them. He then put himself in that position.

Parallel: If the situation involved an adolescent male and then the officer shot him, by your argumentation it too was justified. He can’t control the situation by himself…where is the line?

Comment by mrmokelly

I’m sure at the moment he decided to approach them, he had no idea it would escalate to the level it did, otherwise, he probably wouldn’t have done it without backup… In any case, I’m glad these individuals were arrested and will be charged appropriately.

However, I hope this cop will get additional training and learn better alternatives to this madness.

Have a great day.

Comment by pretty girl


Thanks for the detailed response. It definitely helps flesh things out.

It seems, based on all of that, quite amazing that the situation didn’t escalate further than it did.

And I agree wholeheartedly with pg that this officer should not have responded alone, if this area is such a hotbed of mistrust.

Comment by Walt Bennett


One thing is apparent to me from this video… the officer had a difficult time detaining her. It is MY OPINION, that he is not very skilled in the art of detention. I have a brother who is a police officer in New Orleans. She would have been detained and cuffed in 10 seconds flat WHILE he was reading her rights. 1) She was wrong for assaulting a police officer; 2) He was wrong for punching her; 3) There should not be 1 1/2 minutes worth of footage for us to view because she should have been cuffed, in the car and GONE BY THEN! Period.

My mama said, “Two wrongs don’t make a right.” This police officer clearly needs a refresher from his days at the academy. That girl looks all of 135 pounds. The camera phone should have caught the license plate of that patrol car as it headed to the precinct. This is a very sad scenario indeed.

Comment by LAgirlatheart

This one was pretty bad. The worst of it was off camera:

Comment by Walt Bennett

Just a cop being stupid, but the victim is white:

Comment by Walt Bennett

Now here’s one: Dude tries to get away, cop punches him right in the face:

Comment by Walt Bennett

Walt, this is a MAN…and a WANTED FELON. We’re talking about a WOMAN who was jaywalking. Try again.

Comment by mrmokelly

Beat by police off camera? In other words no video…try again.

Comment by mrmokelly

You’re reaching Walt. I was very specific in what I was looking for…

Comment by mrmokelly

Dont you just wish you could use a taser on a cop

Comment by Tee Toe


Look at that white woman’s face.

Comment by Walt Bennett

And anyway, we agree that this is not something we want to see happen.

We agree on that.

Comment by Walt Bennett


Just a few final things about this case:

1. The female who interfered committed a felony, risked public safety and needed to be brought down.

2. The officer could have been much more violent with her and been justified.

3. There is countless video of people of all races being brought down hard when they resist or interfere, and sometimes just for disobeying.

4. Tensions seem high in that area, breeding mistrust on both sides. This was no doubt a contributing factor to the confrontation.

5. As others in this thread have pointed out, the officer had two people to deal with. His options were limited.

6. This incident should be reviewed to help police make different determinations in similar situations (I have no idea what those might be).

7. All over the web you will find video of police acting a fool, and a lot of the time it’s toward people of color. There is certainly a police bias against people of color, generally. Such bias may or may not be a factor in this case.

8. People of all races need to learn to comply with police instructions at all times. As another commenter in this thread noted, we need to not condone those who believe they can dismiss or ignore a police instruction. The first girl, the one who tried to dismiss the officer, started all the trouble.

There are no doubt deep social issues underneath this confrontation, but the surface issues don’t change because of that: If the police give you an instruction, follow it. And do not interfere with them in the performance of their duties.

This is a case of personal responsibility first. It is an interesting examination of social issues second.

At no point is it police misconduct.

Comment by Walt Bennett

Sure, we blacks just need to learn to just comply to keep from getting hurt! What a load of crap! They are supposed to be trained to help those who are at the worst times of their lives-emergencies and public safety! Instead they pillage and terrorize our communities with their heavy-handed bullying! When they are called on it, they hide behind their fancy, schmancy police unions and protection by the white public at large who are conditioned to believe that policemen are honest workers and you MUSt have done something wrong to them to justify their behavior! This is a shame and an absolute outrage and he should be demoted to a desk somewhere before he ends up killing someone!

Comment by onemom


That could have been your daughter obstructing an officer.

You can’t possibly be encouraging people to disobey the police.

Next question: Would you do it? Would you risk a beat-down to make a social point that didn’t even apply to the situation at hand?

Comment by Walt Bennett

And I hope you understand two things:

1. I am not suggesting, nor would I ever, that black people, or any other people, simply accept police abuse. And let’s be frank: Yes, people of color are subject to police abuse disproportionate to their population size, but police abuse knows no color. Plenty of white folk are abused by the police, too. We must always be vigilant regarding rogue, illegal behavior by those whose duty is to protect and serve. But there are channels. Unless you want to be beat down to make your point and unless you want to risk causing a full-blown riot (and the attendant collateral damage to lives and property), you make your accusation to the proper people at the proper time in the proper way, and these days you will probably have supporting video.

2. These girls were the aggressors in this confrontation. There would have been no confrontation if they had complied with lawful police instructions. I consider it critical that we do not condone disrespect for the police, because if we do, then see Point 1: our children are going to get their heads caved in, while being charged with a felony.

I don’t want the police to have any excuse to beat our children. Teach our children to respectfully comply, and if there was something wrong with the police’s behavior, we deal with that on its own terms in its own time.

Comment by Walt Bennett

I agree that we should be civil. There was once a cop who stopped me while i was walking down the street in my hometown. The cop asked me my name and where I was going. There was nothing going on in the neighborhood at the time, so I asked him why did he need to know? Did I do something wrong? The cop then stated that he was just wondering what i was doing in that particular neighborhood. I was around the corner from my home and was just out walking to the corner store on a sunny afternoon around three pm. I told him unless he has some business to conduct with me, to take it up with me at a later time. This cop had no reason to inquire where i was going, my name, etc. in the height of the day -for nothing! I felt like telling him none of your business, but i did not. I was still cordial with him. I also called three other white witnesses around in case he jumped foul with me. Just have to protect yourself from police officers when you’re black these days!

Comment by onemom

onemom…your story though anecdotal is something I’ve encountered on SO many occasions. It’s instances like these with the law that reinforces why I don’t support Arizona’s immigration law. That encapsulates it perfectly.

Comment by mrmokelly

Don’t think I miss the point that this video stirs passions due to past experience.

That does make it harder to see something free of bias.

Comment by Walt Bennett

Mo and my brother Walt, No we don’t know what happen before the assault by this police officer. However, if this had been me with one of my sisterfriends, we would of kicked his a$$. That is one of the problems in this Country. Just because you were a badge does not give you the right to act like everybody else. If he thought the situation was getting out of hand he should of called for back up. There is never a reason for a man to hit a woman like he did. He was luckly that the people there didn’t get involved and the fact that they only recorded the event.

You could see the force behind that punch. And as an officer of the law this is how you behave over a J-walking. Please.

Comment by Rev. Kupaji Jaliwa

I can’t argue that the officer should have had a better move available than that.

However, Rev, please note that it was now two on one with a crowd gathering.

No doubt he was scared out of his mind.

Comment by Walt Bennett

Mo, normally you are pretty fair in your story telling, but this time you are clearly race-baiting. Here’s the offical other-side of your story. Mo, you are dangerously following in the footsteps of Al and Jesse.

On Friday, The Black Law Enforcement Association of Washington (BLEAW) publicly defended the actions of Seattle Police Officer Ian Walsh, the officer who punched a 17-year-old Black female in the face after jaywalking incident escalated in to volatile situation, and denounced the actions of the two Black women involved in the incident, which has garnered national media attention.

In a statement issued by BLEAW, the organization stated that they believe that the incident was not racially motivated and that officer Walsh was justified in his actions.

This incident was unfortunate and clearly the behavior and actions by both females was embarrassing, said the statement. As regrettable as it looks, the officer had used great restraint in dealing with the female that had pushed him. He maintained a professional demeanor while in an adverse and potentially volatile situation.

BLEAW maintains that the officer was justified in his use of force as he was defending himself with a punch, after being pushed by the by the teen during the altercation.

Based upon standard police defensive tactics training and, in accordance with the use of force continuum, as well as local and federal laws; we assert that the officer acted in a justifiable manner to defend himself and to affect the arrest of the female offender, concluded the statement issued by BLEAW.

Comment by JB

Well the obvious retort is that a black cop is still a cop.

There’s a strong bond among officers.

Then of course is the simple fact that the second girl was committing a felonious physical assault on the officer and he had to maintain control.


What the Police Department needs to do is to say one of the following. Either “We condone the punch to the face” or “We are undertaking retraining of our officers to encourage alternative tactics.”

They need to take a stand on the punch.

Comment by Walt Bennett

JB, not race-baiting at all. There is a HISTORY of racial tension between Seattle cops and its citizenry. We are aware that the police stand behind the officers actions. And the police stood behind Laurence Powell and Stacy Koon.

And sorry, but for you to compare me to Al and Jesse means you clearly have no clear understanding of Al and Jesse’s history. When I give my first press conference, then come see me.

Comment by mrmokelly

What the Police Department needs to do is to say one of the following. Either “We condone the punch to the face” or “We are undertaking retraining of our officers to encourage alternative tactics.”

They need to take a stand on the punch.

Exactly Walt.

Comment by mrmokelly

And by the way (JB) “John Burris”…you are a blog troll. You were in here trolling with your racial hate crime nonsense along with BrutalGal. Readers don’t see your IP information, but I do. Do not start off your sentence with “Mo, normally you are pretty fair in your story telling,” when heretofore all you’ve done is trolled this site and fanned the flames.

Comment by mrmokelly

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